8pm clapping

[baggy1]

£134 Bn is the amount raised in NI each year so it's hardly coming out of Boris's pocket is it? This is what is costs to run 1,300 hospitals, 300,000 nurses and 290,000 doctors. When you have an organisation as big as the NHS then you have big numbers, that doesn't mean that you haven't collected it in the first place. It's difficult this government lark and trying to run it like a PLC doesn't work.

[Derek Hardballs]

I can recall certain posters saying that the charity / charitable donations should be solutions to disability cuts and not the state. Then another pointing out Bulgaria or the like don’t spend as much as we do... like that is relevant to the 5th / 6th biggest economy in the world.

[CA Baggie]

Look at how Germany have coped with this and then look at how much they spend on their health service.

Then decide whether our NHS is underfunded.

[baggy1]

Congratulations on the most contrived Tory excuse of the whole pandemic CA - You are saying that Germany's response of testing early and tracing the virus and taking appropriate Federal measures (whilst we sat back and talked of herd immunity and not having any testing available) is not the reason for their success, it was simply because they have a tax based private insurance system in place.

You win the Proth defence award of the week for that one mate.

[Borin' Baggie]

Look at how Germany have coped with this and then look at how much they spend on their health service.

Then decide whether our NHS is underfunded.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic but public healthcare spending in Germany is 30% higher per capita. The only country with higher public spending per capita and worse outcomes are the US.

[Ossian]

Yes, but imagine how the German economy and its basket case manufacturing sector must envy our 19% rate of Corporation Tax.

[Cunninghamismagic]

Look at how Germany have coped with this and then look at how much they spend on their health service.

Then decide whether our NHS is underfunded.

Other wealthy European countries such as France, Holland, Spain and Italy have coped similarly to us. Not sure what their health spending is?

[JOK]

“But I’ll still vote for a party that cheers not giving nhs workers a pay rise”

Just for accuracy. No one was denying NHS workers a pay rise. The cheers were for the defeat of an opposition amendment after an acrimonious debate.  The amendment was to lift the cap on the amount of rise to be awarded not to deny a wage rise at completely.

I'm surprised at you JOK of all people for trying to put some vagaries around this subject, you usually are one of the posters that tries to point out facts.

Just for accuracy, the amendment that was voted down was this one (taken from factcheck):

“…respectfully regret that the Gracious Speech fails to end cuts to the police and the fire service; commend the response of the emergency services to the recent terrorist attacks and to the Grenfell Tower fire; call on the Government to recruit more police officers and fire-fighters; and further call on the Government to end the public sector pay cap and give the emergency and public services a fair pay rise.”

Strictly speaking you are correct that the vote wasn't specifically about Nurses pay, it was about public sector pay. But you really are trying to add some obfuscation to a topic rather than clarify there.

There are more details here: https://fullfact.org/health/queens-speec...ector-pay/

No obfuscation B1. ( When I composed this missive I could have sworn you accused me of obfuscation. Losing it   ) Loanee and also some sub editors for that matter, did not, as you have correctly done, include the word ‘fair’. Fact; The amendment was about the cap, and not about ‘denying’ a pay rise as suggested by Loanee, social media types and Headline writers.
I would suggest that most contentious vote wins or defeats are very often greeted in MPs usual, child like, bear pit manner. Highlighting just one specific instance for political sniping doesn’t reflect that. (Perhaps spend more time watching BBC Parliament than Faceache might serve some better)

Here are some quotes from that fact check.
“Despite voting against the amendment, the government announced the end of the pay cap later that year, and nurses received a pay rise in cash terms above 1% in the following financial year.”

“At the  2017 budget five months after the vote in parliament, the government confirmed it was ending the public sector pay cap and in March 2018 it announced a pay rise for most NHS staff equivalent to at least 6.5% in real cash terms for three years.”
So when that budget had got through all it’s readings did the Tory MPs boo themselves because they had awarded PSWs a decent rise? I think not.

Still that doesn’t make ‘edgy’ social media misquotes does it.

[baggy1]

I agree JOK - reading around it a bit there was a 6.5% over 3 year pay rise granted about 6 months after the bill so for balance that should be brought out when discussing the matter. It should also be pointed out that the 6.5% effectively was a 'standstill' pay rise because of inflation. I think one of the problems arising from this for the government is how unprepared they were for the question with has allowed the media (both mainstream and social) to jump on the matter.

The upshot is that the government did give a pay rise to the public sector but did it in a way that wasn't transparent because they didn't want it analysed. Upon analysis it shows that they actually gave them a raise in line with inflation, but as they were seen as underpaid at the time it kept them underpaid.

It will be interesting to see what happens when all of the dust settles on this current situation.

And I did accuse you of obfuscation - it sounded posh

[JOK]

I agree JOK - reading around it a bit there was a 6.5% over 3 year pay rise granted about 6 months after the bill so for balance that should be brought out when discussing the matter. It should also be pointed out that the 6.5% effectively was a 'standstill' pay rise because of inflation. I think one of the problems arising from this for the government is how unprepared they were for the question with has allowed the media (both mainstream and social) to jump on the matter.

The upshot is that the government did give a pay rise to the public sector but did it in a way that wasn't transparent because they didn't want it analysed. Upon analysis it shows that they actually gave them a raise in line with inflation, but as they were seen as underpaid at the time it kept them underpaid.

It will be interesting to see what happens when all of the dust settles on this current situation.

And I did accuse you of obfuscation - it sounded posh

It will be interesting to see. I’d like to think that they will recognise the efforts the front line put in always, not just now. Nothing like a sinner repented!  The last budget (which is well up the Swannie now) gives me a little hope that they will.