Sweeping Generalisation

[Derek Hardballs]

I’m not certain it was me that posted it but I definitely follow him and love his stuff.

Jonathon Pie is invariably on the money and I’ve linked to him as others including yourself have quite a few times. 

I don’t have any earth shattering theories it was simply an observation that you can group people together along the lines I have. That said it’s easy to dismiss these views collectively held on the left and right as extremes to be ignored but that is missing the point and that is their voices are being heard more than any others and in turn influencing politics and culture imo to the detriment of the country. Where are the moderate voices in the Tory party? Oh yeah they got kicked out or shoved on to the back benches, where were the moderate voices on the Labour front branches over the last four years? Oh yeah cast aside and even now as we see some type of move back to the centre a very vocal group of militant Corbyn fans are trying to derail their own party mired in naval gazing arguments.

For example if I had said ten years ago that industrial scale misleading political advertising, sloganeering, debate would be perfectly acceptable I think people would be astounded by the level it has reached. Or how we have gone from the relative cultural unity of the 2012 (I appreciate there were still problems) to where we are now with a fractured and divided nation I think most would be deeply disappointed but because it’s happened incrementally it’s becoming the norm.

[ChamonixBaggie]

Jonathan Pie is good but he doesn't really offer any solution. Fuzz's argument that calling people stupid for voting Trump/Brexit/Whatever just made them double down is one you hear a lot but what do you do about it? They can't (...won't) be reasoned with and as you say, deriding the obvious idiocy just alienates them further. Do we just accept that large chunks of the west are idiotic, vaguely xenophobic, close-minded arseholes and that's our lot?

Dekka is right that people are becoming more and more tribal and once they've picked their 'side' there is no derailing them, even if their side suddenly picks up something insane like anti-vaxx or flat earth. I was a raving Corbynista but am fully behind Starmer as its clear that people can't make the seismic shift from far-right to centre-left to they must be guided gently. If that means a term or two of centrism then thats what we must have. The legions of idiots on every social media post calling him a Red Tory or something similar do my nut in. He's a mile to the left of Blair FFS but they won't hear it. The "socialism or death" crowd are just as responsible as the "we hate foreigners" lot for ongoing Tory governments.

Social media and the resulting prominence of previously niche subcultures/ideas is obviously partly to blame. Is there anything we can do about it though? I like to hope its not really as bad as all that and that the idiots all over social media represent a small proportion of actual real people and that the various "news" content aggregators just appeal to the lowest denominator for clicks. Most people you meet in real life tend to be pretty normal right?

[fuzzbox]

I’m not certain it was me that posted it but I definitely follow him and love his stuff.

Jonathon Pie is invariably on the money and I’ve linked to him as others including yourself have quite a few times. 

I don’t have any earth shattering theories it was simply an observation that you can group people together along the lines I have. That said it’s easy to dismiss these views collectively held on the left and right as extremes to be ignored but that is missing the point and that is their voices are being heard more than any others and in turn influencing politics and culture imo to the detriment of the country. Where are the moderate voices in the Tory party? Oh yeah they got kicked out or shoved on to the back benches, where were the moderate voices on the Labour front branches over the last four years? Oh yeah cast aside and even now as we see some type of move back to the centre a very vocal group of militant Corbyn fans are trying to derail their own party mired in naval gazing arguments.

For example if I had said ten years ago that industrial scale misleading political advertising, sloganeering, debate would be perfectly acceptable I think people would be astounded by the level it has reached. Or how we have gone from the relative cultural unity of the 2012 (I appreciate there were still problems) to where we are now with a fractured and divided nation I think most would be deeply disappointed but because it’s happened incrementally it’s becoming the norm.

I still think it's simplistic - and dismissive - to say you can group people based on those apparently disparate subjects. It's more likely that people who post a lot, deliberately choose provocative subjects to get noticed. Just like those on late night talk radio 40 years ago. The rules haven't changed changed just the game got bigger.

But then, maybe, there is a theme - and it's one of the outsider, the rebel. It's almost a romantic, heroic vision if that's what you believe in. It's also emotional which makes the beliefs entrenched and hard to let go. The left used to it well by emphasising unity, brotherhood and belonging.

I do essentially agree with you, though - particularly the last paragraph.

The only thing is I believe (and hope) that most people are essentially moderate. What concerns me - and it's linked to your last paragraph - is that all types of media prioritise extreme viewpoints and publish without any care to the truth. Even the BBC have done this. The clicks are all important and everyone is racing to the bottom.

I don't even believe those who make the crap up believe it or are even that extreme - they're just playing manipulation games. The irony is that they could be converting people to levels more extreme and unmanageable than themselves.

We already had fact-checking websites - because we needed them. That's a sad indicator of where we were.  Now we have fake fact-checking websites. How perverse is that?

Poverty and fear of poverty are the difference between now and 2012. You'll find throughout history if people feel safe and satisfied, extremism recedes. Extremism needs fear to grow, we have that now. We also have 'pressure groups' that have the will and now more than ever, the way, to fan the flames of fear and create more extremism.

I hope that at some point people tire of being lied to and manipulated in this way and it causes political damage when you're caught.
That is what I think we should be focusing on.

[Protheroe]

Before anyone gets upset and defensive this is clearly a sweeping generalisation and there will be lots of exceptions, but why do these disparate subjects seem to bind a certain group of people together? 

Think Brexit is great
Dislike Meghan Markel 
Dislike face masks, and very anti-lockdown
Think Covid 19 is a hoax or just the flu
Support the Conservative’s without question 
Have British, US, Israeli avatars 
Want to ‘Defund the BBC’
Refuse to trust mainstream media but trust random blog and dubious social media links / ‘facts’
Think the climate change is a hoax or not that bad 

Just an observation from SM, radio and tv.

As you admitted, it's very simplistic view and if I may say so, also from the faux moral and intellectual high ground you inhabit most of the time.

All of the issues you raise are highly nuanced and I think you probably read into peoples' views what you want to read. You don't appear to be a very tolerant chap.

---

Even the BBC have done this.

As an example, consider the BBC's wholly extreme narrative on mask wearing in English secondary schools this morning.

Most media are determined to fuel fear, when the evidence is entirely absent. That, Dekka - is why the mainstream media is held in such low regard, they're incapable of telling us even half of the story.

[fuzzbox]

As you admitted, it's very simplistic view and if I may say so, also from the faux moral and intellectual high ground you inhabit most of the time.

All of the issues you raise are highly nuanced and I think you probably read into peoples' views what you want to read. You don't appear to be a very tolerant chap.


As an example, consider the BBC's wholly extreme narrative on mask wearing in English secondary schools this morning.

Most media are determined to fuel fear, when the evidence is entirely absent. That, Dekka - is why the mainstream media is held in such low regard, they're incapable of telling us even half of the story.

Here's an example of why there is a logical reason people believe in such 'extreme' ideas as 'defunding' the BBC. Even if you disagree with Protheroe, you've got to assume he's not stupid (although, maybe not as smart as he thinks he is  ) and there is reasoning behind his beliefs.

It doesn't take much investigation to see its detractors think they're 'not trusted' and they 'pursue an agenda'. It doesn't take much more investigation to discover there is at least 'some' evidence to support it. Just ignoring it and dismissing it as 'crackpot' only pushes their case and I would imagine, firms their resolve. (I'm not saying you've done this, DH)

You could apply the same reasoning to ALL the subjects you raised.

The BBC is making mistakes and if it doesn't respond positively now, it may regret it.

PS. Protheroe - now's a good time to buy lumber!



Only joking.

[Protheroe]

Here's an example of why there is a logical reason people believe in such 'extreme' ideas as 'defunding' the BBC. Even if you disagree with Protheroe, you've got to assume he's not stupid (although, maybe not as smart as he thinks he is  ) and there is reasoning behind his beliefs.

It doesn't take much investigation to see its detractors think they're 'not trusted' and they 'pursue an agenda'. It doesn't take much more investigation to discover there is at least 'some' evidence to support it. Just ignoring it and dismissing it as 'crackpot' only pushes their case and I would imagine, firms their resolve. (I'm not saying you've done this, DH)

You could apply the same reasoning to ALL the subjects you raised.

The BBC is making mistakes and if it doesn't respond positively now, it may regret it.

PS. Protheroe - now's a good time to buy lumber!



Only joking.

It's entirely obvious why the BBC follows an agenda. Look at the people who run it. Look at the people who work for it. Look at the people who aspire to work for it.

When you appoint an activist like Lewis Goodall as Policy Editor of Newsnight your output ceases to be fair minded in any way.

You be hard pressed to find a single liberal voice at the BBC, but thousands of hyperliberals.

The main problem with our national broadcaster is people are sick to death of being talked down to - whether it's Brexit, Meghan, Illegal Immigration, Covid 19, Trans Rights, Climate Change etc etc.



And I actually bought a few more Britannias on the dip last week.

[Protheroe]

And I rest my case.
https://order-order.com/2020/08/25/revea...2zgBPp6KHM

[Borin' Baggie]

And I rest my case.
https://order-order.com/2020/08/25/revea...2zgBPp6KHM

Have you got it from a reputable source and not Paul Staines deranged blog of misinformation?

[Derek Hardballs]

And I rest my case.
https://order-order.com/2020/08/25/revea...2zgBPp6KHM

Have you got it from a reputable source and not Paul Staines deranged blog of misinformation?

Arf ticks two off the checklist...

Dislikes the BBC and chooses to believe a random blog that is about as balanced as Flamingo with an inner ear infection.

[Protheroe]

And I rest my case.
https://order-order.com/2020/08/25/revea...2zgBPp6KHM

Have you got it from a reputable source and not Paul Staines deranged blog of misinformation?

Did you click on the links to the two people involved? No? Then you may have reconsidered posting this.

There's no better way to hoist socialists than on their own petard.

---

Arf ticks two off the checklist...

Dislikes the BBC and chooses to believe a random blog that is about as balanced as Flamingo with an inner ear infection.

Ah, so you didn't do your due diligence either. Figures I spose. You're priceless.