So it's OK to claim whatever gender you like, but...

[Fido]

If the person doesn't resemble their passport then they should be getting a new one. How can they expect to fly or similar if they don't look like the passport?  Fed up of these people clamouring for five minutes if outraged media attention when it's their own flipping fault.

What next, loads of sixteen year old lads nicking their older sister's passports and using them in pubs saying they are gender swaps.

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[quote pid="212890" dateline="1599307144"]
MassDebater wrote:

Watch the docu-film Zeitgeist if you want to see how many similarities and parallel s there are in all religions, and why they're just made up to appease scared people.

I hope you arent suggesting it isn't true about the cow lud

Anyway...mooo ving on
[/quote]

Is the right answer.

[Sliced]

If the person doesn't resemble their passport then they should be getting a new one. How can they expect to fly or similar if they don't look like the passport?  Fed up of these people clamouring for five minutes if outraged media attention when it's their own flipping fault.

What next, loads of sixteen year old lads nicking their older sister's passports and using them in pubs saying they are gender swaps.

Exactly this. Or those with more sinister motives

[The liquidator]

Welcome to the world of woke .

[fuzzbox]

If the person doesn't resemble their passport then they should be getting a new one. How can they expect to fly or similar if they don't look like the passport?  Fed up of these people clamouring for five minutes if outraged media attention when it's their own flipping fault.

What next, loads of sixteen year old lads nicking their older sister's passports and using them in pubs saying they are gender swaps.

Exactly this. Or those with more sinister motives

Am I missing something? Wouldn't it be easier to just borrow your brothers - or even nick the blokes from down the road's for 'sinister purposes'?

Why would you over-complicate things by pretending to be woman? Unless you really want to, I suppose...

If this is the fear of the burka and terrorism, maybe I can help put peoples minds at rest. Until the pandemic, I travelled between the US and UK every couple of weeks. On the odd time someone is wearing a full hibab, they are ALWAYS ask to lift it and they ALWAYS do. No fuss, no argument, it's all over in 10 seconds. Some people will believe any shite they read. They should ask themselves why they choose to believe something so obviously ridiculous and why someone would make something like this up and distribute it.

If someone wants to say they're black, woman or cat, why do I care? It's got nothing to do with me. Unless I'm expected to pay for it, of course. But that's not a moral issue, it's just I'm tight.

When I was a student many decades ago, people made all sorts of idiot statements all the time. The difference then was that people dismissed it as shite and it got roundly ignored. Now people lap it up so they can comment about how stupid other people are.

[Sliced]

That is a massive leap. You seem to be getting worked up about something that no one has said and I wasn't insinuating.

I was actually talking about those wanting to commit fraud. People should look like their ID photo, otherwise ID's become pointless.

Someone who wears a hijab and then has their ID checked will still have the same face.

[Borin' Baggie]

The worlds gone mad Tom, however I would put it like this - your race is defined by other people (your parents / ancestors) whereas your gender would be defined by you (who you are / how you feel).

I don't necessarily agree with it as a principal but would look at each individual case rather than allow a blanket 'yes you have to allow anybody to do what they want'. Some examples (males / former males competing in female sports) don't sit right and need to be monitored. If a man wants to be a woman that should be enough for them, they don't need to then immediately step into the woman's arena of sport (as an example)

Sex and race are biological.
Gender is social, cultural and individual.

Well that concept of gender was introduced in the 50s and started to gain traction in the 70s but it did not mean this for most of human history. And we somehow survived. Not saying it isn't progress to have these new definitions and understandings for affected groups in society, and it is good for everyone to be aware, just don't think we should be spending so much time on it and entertaining any and all ideas. I/we blame social media.

The concept of gay people not being mentally ill only gained traction in modern Western Society in the 1970s.

Transgender people and third gender cultures have been commonplace in human history, Asian culture is a good example and specifically India. Polynesia as well.

I was thinking of a UK perspective and the use of the word gender specifically, yes. Mea culpa. And ìt is progress as I said, but there can be negative aspects to progress - for example with industrialisation came workers in Lancashire with a life expectancy less than that of people in slavery. 

My principal objection to the whole gender politics stuff is the disproportionate impact some seem to want it to have so that the majotity are being asked to do whatever a small minority want without the right to question it, with any criticism or questioning being met with cries of transphobe or bigot. That is not equality and we have schools, governments and workplaces jumpy about what pronouns to use and health organisations concerned whether they can raise women's issues and still use the term women without causing offence (as a tiny proportion of the world's population affected my not have been born women) etc. 

Other people's rights are still important - so that is my complaint re social media and cancel culture - push for inclusivity and fairness and rights where they are needed, but changes to society need to be debated and everyone have their needs and rights considered fully. Which means common sense compromise if different groups have different wishes/needs. 

On the subject of other cultures, a hermaphrodite/bisexual being is common to many creation myths in the East and West - the Norse giant Ymir fathered and mothered the other giants, and the cow Audumla licked people/gods out the ice and suckled Ymir - a cow is also in Egyptian creation mythology. A similar being to the hermaphrodite giant exists in Iranian mythology apparently and has parallels elsewhere. The earth and sky were formed out of Ymir as the Buddha made the world from another giant as well I think and this is a common theme as well as flood mythologies. And Odin's  death and rebirth on the tree Yggdrasil after being pierced by a spear are very similar to the crucifixion of Christ... but I digress.

The UK perspective is based on the Bible, the same reason homosexual relations were frowned upon. Also, with regards to life expectancy for mill and factory workers in the UK that's skewed quite heavily by child mortality rates being higher and the rate of childbirth being higher in Northern England, and ultimately the progress made during that time has provided a crucial foundation to the modern prosperity of our country in both living conditions and social rights. Let's not forget how many rights industrialisation granted the new working classes of the late 18th and early 19th century and how the powers of the gentry declined with the growth of liberalism and the labour movements.

With respect to "trans rights", pronouns are just common courtesy. If you're purposely misgendering someone then you're being a twat for no reason and in every story I've read the purposely part is the sticking point and is often glossed over for narrative purposes. You're example of health organisations being "concerned whether they can raise women's issues" also seems a bit bizarre, what examples are there? I know there was that thing with that Labour MP recently that I saw an article on but if you actually read the article instead of the headline it's pretty evident that the Labour MP was being a twat, Piers Morgan himself (quelle surprise at Piers Morgan being a nobhead) deliberately excluded trans men who had not had their cervix removed and women who had undergone a total hysterectomy (implying the former group must be women and that the latter group aren't women anymore) despite there not being a need to and the supposed "health organisation" being CNN who, last I checked, weren't a health organisation. Then there's stuff like the recent rugby stuff where people twisted a report into trying to block people assigned as male at birth playing rugby full stop despite the report being about androgenisation so the conclusions not being relevant to trans women who hadn't gone through that process (like if they were on puberty blockers before transitioning) and would have the very detrimental and stupid side effect of banning junior mixed rugby, but nobody wants to talk about that as there's an easy soundbite from an LGBT group that can be attacked instead. Then there's the debate on legal gender identification where there are legitimate concerns over allowing anyone to self identify their gender but ignoring the reasons in support for self identification being that the policy is based on successful implementation in other countries and there haven't been any credible alternative solutions offered to fix the issue of loads of trans people being on hormones for a decade, being out publicly and going through the full course of surgery and still not having enough evidence that they're living as they're next gender to go through the referral process to change their registered gender, making it entirely possible for a trans woman to have no biological hormonal features of a man, living as a woman for 10 years and having their meat and veg turned into a fanny but the legislation says "nope, still a man". It's hardly clear cut and the fact that trans people are such a minority means people aren't really exposed to the issues they have so they fly under the radar, and when that happens only the loud, militant minorities can filter through and nobody sensible is able to challenge the nonsense being pushed by the militant groups on the other side. The ultimate underlying issue for trans groups isn't all the noise flying around but that there are still really stupid barriers that prevent them from having basic recognition.

[fuzzbox]

That is a massive leap. You seem to be getting worked up about something that no one has said and I wasn't insinuating.

I was actually talking about those wanting to commit fraud. People should look like their ID photo, otherwise ID's become pointless.

Someone who wears a hijab and then has their ID checked will still have the same face.

I thought it might be. That's why I said "If this is the fear of the burka and terrorism, maybe I can help put peoples minds at rest."
On the other hand, It's a massive leap to say I'm wound up!

If you don't look like your photo, don't you have to change your passport? Isn't that why children's photos don't last such a long time and you have to change your photo every 10 years as you age?

If you think people who are frightened of refusing a photo ID in case they get into 'trouble' then I'm not sure how often that would happen in reality. Certainly not in immigration or anywhere important and probably nowhere where it would be newsworthy on it's own merits.

'Borrowed ID' have always been used for fraud, way before any 'woke agendas' could explain photos not looking like their owners, surely? That means the issue is people just not checking and doing their job properly. It's got nothing to do with gender or anything else.

I genuinely don't see the link, maybe that's why I misunderstood your point. I wasn't 'wound up' just confused...

***Update. I've just re-read what I wrote and you're right - the thing about Burqa's was completely irrelevant. I can't even work out what prompted me to write it! I was probably doing too many things at once.

Apologies.

[Cheshire East Baggie]

Weird story though, isn't it? It's always occurred to me that you can't be regarded as a "little bit black", even if it is only one grandparent. And if you have a white parent and a black parent, you wouldn't get much credibility if you said "I'm white really". But claiming some undetectable black heritage or ancestry just to gain credibility is bizarre.

The great Daley Thompson once said "I'm not black I'm British". To a chorus of abuse from all sides, obviously. We're all guilty of labelling ourselves and others.

[LIMABAGGIE]

They should only put you in a box when they bury you. We are all individuals, it is our actions and behaviours that make us what we are, not skin colour, background or gender.

[ColliersWoodBaggie]

I'd say the concept is ethnicity, not race. I've always thought the Human Race, therefore our species is termed Homo Sapiens. Apart from Dingels, obviously.

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They should only put you in a box when they bury you. We are all individuals, it is our actions and behaviours that make us what we are, not skin colour, background or gender.

+1