The next 5 years?
#1
Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.
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#2
(02-03-2021, 08:04 AM)Pragmatist Wrote: Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.

Great post completely agree
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#3
(02-03-2021, 08:16 AM)Cornflake Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:04 AM)Pragmatist Wrote: Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.

Great post completely agree

Great post, and I agree completely in the theory, however plans like these require stability and when we have an owner who quite obviously wants out I can’t see how we can formulate such a plan in this environment, I would be happy with giving Appleton a crack at it, he is learning his trade with distinction and seems the sort of coach we need, young, ambitious and he has a vested interest in our club, totally agree with bringing Brunt & Morrison in on the coaching side, I see Man Utd have just employed Fletcher in a similar role, we have to refocus on younger players, the modern game is all about getting around the pitch quicker, obviously with the talent to match, Leeds are a great example of this, you look at them and compare our midfield two last night !! 

There needs to be a clear out of players and management for anything as constructive as your suggestion to take off, I think this will take longer than we want or need due to financial restrictions, we can only hope that someone at the club cares enough to stand up and say to the owners that we have reached the end of the road with this plan, it’s sad I know but oh for the days of the steady hand of Peace.

(02-03-2021, 08:16 AM)Cornflake Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:04 AM)Pragmatist Wrote: Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.

Great post completely agree

Great post, and I agree completely in the theory, however plans like these require stability and when we have an owner who quite obviously wants out I can’t see how we can formulate such a plan in this environment, I would be happy with giving Appleton a crack at it, he is learning his trade with distinction and seems the sort of coach we need, young, ambitious and he has a vested interest in our club, totally agree with bringing Brunt & Morrison in on the coaching side, I see Man Utd have just employed Fletcher in a similar role, we have to refocus on younger players, the modern game is all about getting around the pitch quicker, obviously with the talent to match, Leeds are a great example of this, you look at them and compare our midfield two last night !! 

There needs to be a clear out of players and management for anything as constructive as your suggestion to take off, I think this will take longer than we want or need due to financial restrictions, we can only hope that someone at the club cares enough to stand up and say to the owners that we have reached the end of the road with this plan, it’s sad I know but oh for the days of the steady hand of Peace.
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#4
This is exactly what our owners should be aiming for.
But they don't have a long term plan.
The irony of what you say is that, to me at least, this is exactly where we were a year ago.
We had a charismatic manager, backed by the board to get us up in 2 years...
He did early. We weren't/ aren't good enough. The board chickened out, forgot the plan.
Which is why we're where we are.
The future?
Recycle and repeat.
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#5
(02-03-2021, 08:04 AM)Pragmatist Wrote: Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.

Why is there this obsession with keeping a manager who gets you relegated? 

Yes, Dyche brought Burnley straight back up, but him aside it's very rare. Farke hasn't achieved this yet. Swansea are 5 points behind with a game in hand and Brentford are 7 points behind them with two games in hand. 

As for getting an Ashworth Mark II, I think the issue is that most managers don't want to work under an Ashworth. They want to choose their own players and their own coaching staff. So you end up with what we've got now, a team half,picked by the manager and half-picked by the DoF. 

Finally, everyone in internetland talks about A Long Term Plan, A Vision and Using the Academy.

But anymore than 5 bad games on the trot and they call for the manager's head.
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#6
You are absolutely right but we had this under Dashworth and he got poached by England. We also need to factor in that the "Dashworth" character is probably going to need replacing every 5 years because we would never be able to guarantee holding on to them.
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#7
Planning in football is an oxymoron

As for using the academy, Allardyce seems determined not to use our younger players. Harper, Field and Kipre gone, the likes of Livermore, Philipps, HRK and Snodgrass instead
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#8
(02-03-2021, 09:16 AM)Gzbaggy Wrote: Planning in football is an oxymoron

As for using the academy,  Allardyce seems determined not to use our younger players. Harper, Field and Kipre gone, the likes of Livermore, Philipps, HRK and Snodgrass instead

Unfortunately this is true. The indication was that we were planning quite well for the future, lowering squad age and bringing in players that could be here for a few years. The problem is that predictably they were really good championship standard but not prem, so what happens? Well the fans start talking about how we're a massive joke, we compromise on the project because the money from the Prem is too lucrative. 

However, the idea that we're screwed next season comes from the short term disappointment of losing week in week out. The vast majority of the teams in the Champ would kill to have our squad
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#9
(02-03-2021, 08:46 AM)Squid Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 08:04 AM)Pragmatist Wrote: Whoever we appoint as our next manager should have ka minimum target of getting promoted within 2 years.

But then what? Whatever squad we may go up with would struggle the next year unless there was a huge cash injection. In the absence of that, we’d be straight back in a relegation battle and we’d probably sack the manager and start again. It’s madness. 

Our next manager needs to be a proven coach, capable of getting the best out of players and making them better. He’s also got to be a motivator, good enough to get an extra 10% out of players (like a Dyche or Wilder did last year). He needs to have the ability to bring through Academy players and turn them into Premier League players. And he needs to have a strong international scouting network, because we simply can’t afford to compete in the Premier League transfer market and there’s far better value abroad.

Above all, we need to provide the next manager with the right mandate. Getting relegated from the Premier League will not cost him his job - he will be given the opportunity to get us straight back up (like Farke, and I suspect like Wilder and Parker, and probably Potter or Dyche). Being relegated is not a failure - we are a top 16-25 ranked club. Our size and stature is one of a club which will never be secure in the Premier League. Over a 5-year period the minimum expectation should be to have either 2 or 3 seasons in the Premier League.

Maybe that expectation changes if we land the right sort of major backer. Let’s assume that we don’t.

Let’s develop a style. Let’s have an Ashworth-type Director of Football linking the playing, coaching, scouting and academy. Let’s re-establish our DNA and get in proven past players who will reinforce that.

So let’s look at names for a shortlist. Appleton unquestionably. Paul Cook. Eddie Howe but I doubt he will come and I don’t think he’s quite the right fit. Would love Steven Gerrard but he’s destined for the Premier League. Steve Cooper from Swansea? Not sure. Nigel Pearson with Craig Shakespeare? Wouldn’t be the worst option but Pearson and longevity do not go well together. Appleton or Cook really stand out to me as the top candidates.

Assistants? I’d sure love to see Brunty and Jimmy involved. Darren Fletcher possibly. All a good link with Appleton. Scharner also in the mix. 

Finding the right DoF is a massive challenge. Good ones are not easy to find. Thinking caps needed. 

Let’s get our club back. But stop the short-term knee jerk thinking. We need a clear and proper rolling 5-year plan.

Why is there this obsession with keeping a manager who gets you relegated? 

Yes, Dyche brought Burnley straight back up, but him aside it's very rare. Farke hasn't achieved this yet. Swansea are 5 points behind with a game in hand and Brentford are 7 points behind them with two games in hand. 

As for getting an Ashworth Mark II, I think the issue is that most managers don't want to work under an Ashworth. They want to choose their own players and their own coaching staff. So you end up with what we've got now, a team half,picked by the manager and half-picked by the DoF. 

Finally, everyone in internetland talks about A Long Term Plan, A Vision and Using the Academy.

But anymore than 5 bad games on the trot and they call for the manager's head.

It’s not an “obsession”. It’s a recognition that the same manager got that squad up and knows what it takes.  The harsh reality is that the gulf between the two divisions is huge.  Without massive investment, what it takes to get up, and the squad needed to achieve that, will not keep you up in the Premier League, so being relegated with one of the smallest budgets and smallest wage bills is not “failure”.  If you go up and spend £100m (like Leeds did) and then fail then that’s a different matter.

The point is that sacking the manager who had got you up and bringing in a new manager means a new set of ideas, and probably several new players, and crucially more time for the squad to learn the new manager’s methods. Ironically that probably lessens the chances of bouncing back up.  It’s then a vicious circle.  If the manager must go, then promote from within, and continue the journey.

The best way to get established in the Premier League, and indeed probably the only way without big investment, is to get relegated, sell 2 or 3 players to raise big funds to build a stronger, deeper squad, better equipped to stay up the next time, and then build from there.  But the key to achieving that is using the money wisely - an excellent scouting network needed to find the next Mulumbu, Olsen, Scharner, Odemwingie, Hegazi, Pereira etc, and at the same time bring the better Academy player through (or sell them for big bucks like Ferguson and Rogers).  

We have to operate a lot smarter than lurching from manager to manager every 2 years.  This means identifying the right management structure and picking the right manager, somebody who buys into that, and one caveat that they must buy into is that if they need extra experienced guidance from bringing on a (semi-retired) Hodgson or a Pearson or Megson to help them when going through a sticky patch, which is inevitable from time to time, then that’s the trade-off for the security of the 5-year plan. There will be peaks and troughs but over-reactions to the troughs will take us backwards every time. 

And if our 5-year manager does such a great job that he gets poached for a top job, then that means we’ve done well, and we then promote from within to minimise the change.  Continuity management around a solid framework. 

Norwich and Burnley (and I suspect Blades and Fulham) are all likely to be following this same continuity plan when they go down.  Some managers may simply be right for clubs like ours.  We aren’t one of the big boys. There’s no such thing as Premier League security for a club our size, nor for 5 of 6 others.  That’s just the way it is, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t still be good.
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#10
(02-03-2021, 09:16 AM)Gzbaggy Wrote: Planning in football is an oxymoron

As for using the academy, Allardyce seems determined not to use our younger players. Harper, Field and Kipre gone, the likes of Livermore, Philipps, HRK and Snodgrass instead

Name a player that Big Sam has developed from the Academy of the club?

Bolton academy was dead under his management
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