Alan Bates vs The Post Office

[Derek Hardballs]

I hope Private Eye got the lions share of the credit. They were the first with the story and doggedly pursued it for years.

PE were relentless in pushing it but saying they deserve the lions share does a disservice to Bates and Computer Weekly.

---

Paula Vennells, Adam Crozier and Moya Greene have blood on their hands.

Not to mention the Lib Dem Minister for the Post Office, Mr Ed Davey who by most accounts wouldn’t even meet the campaigners.

Do you want me to get party political?

Who was the party in power that Horizon was set up under?

Who was the party in power when the issues with Horizon first came to light and ignored?

Who was the party in power for the first legal action over this?


Quite frankly, and Alan Bates has said this, the issue lies with the Post Office/RM who continually lied to government, covered up issues with the system to preserve their brand and aggressively used "expert" witnesses to undermine the legal system and cause several miscarriages of justice. Bates started campaigning in 2004, PE and Computer Weekly started publishing info in 2008. The first time the government pushed for an enquiry into Horizon and PO was started in 2012 (Google Second Sight's involvement).

I do find it hilarious how you're repeating a Daily Mail smear campaign against the Lib Dems to undermine their campaign against the Tories though.

I couldn’t care less if you get party political. The fact is he should have met with them as should others in power when it became clear there was a problem.

[Tom Joad]

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

[Borin' Baggie]

I hope Private Eye got the lions share of the credit. They were the first with the story and doggedly pursued it for years.

PE were relentless in pushing it but saying they deserve the lions share does a disservice to Bates and Computer Weekly.

---

Paula Vennells, Adam Crozier and Moya Greene have blood on their hands.

Not to mention the Lib Dem Minister for the Post Office, Mr Ed Davey who by most accounts wouldn’t even meet the campaigners.

Do you want me to get party political?

Who was the party in power that Horizon was set up under?

Who was the party in power when the issues with Horizon first came to light and ignored?

Who was the party in power for the first legal action over this?


Quite frankly, and Alan Bates has said this, the issue lies with the Post Office/RM who continually lied to government, covered up issues with the system to preserve their brand and aggressively used "expert" witnesses to undermine the legal system and cause several miscarriages of justice. Bates started campaigning in 2004, PE and Computer Weekly started publishing info in 2008. The first time the government pushed for an enquiry into Horizon and PO was started in 2012 (Google Second Sight's involvement).

I do find it hilarious how you're repeating a Daily Mail smear campaign against the Lib Dems to undermine their campaign against the Tories though.

I couldn’t care less if you get party political. The fact is he should have met with them as should others in power when it became clear there was a problem.

Yeah, he should have. And so should Lord Green and Mandelson. But they didn't, because the PO/RM lied to them much as they lied to the courts to cover this up so they didn't know anything about the scale of the problem.

That's why I've singled out the three CEOs of RM/PO and that is why Bates has gone after them, because they lied to cover it up.

[baggie_ray]

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

I haven't followed this too closely and am working off my memory from a few years ago but wasn't it that the computer system said more money had been input than actually had? i.e. the teller received £10 from the customer and entered that on the system but the system said £20 had been entered, therefore the teller had "nicked" the £10 shortfall in the till?

Obviously not in those specific quantities but the system said more money had been paid into the till than actually had. 

There was no actual missing money.

[Borin' Baggie]

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

I haven't followed this too closely and am working off my memory from a few years ago but wasn't it that the computer system said more money had been input than actually had? i.e. the teller received £10 from the customer and entered that on the system but the system said £20 had been entered, therefore the teller had "nicked" the £10 shortfall in the till?

Obviously not in those specific quantities but the system said more money had been paid into the till than actually had. 

There was no actual missing money.

Yeah, coupled with the lack of a paper trail to identify any accounting shortfalls due to everything being through the Horizon system.

[Albionmad]

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

Apparently it went into a (or several) suspense account(s) and ended up as PO profits. 
But that is difficult to prove without access to the said accounts

[cornishbaggie]

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

Apparently it went into a (or several) suspense account(s) and ended up as PO profits. 
But that is difficult to prove without access to the said accounts

The money paid by the sub postmasters to cover the shortfalls went into suspense accounts and hence ended up as P O profits, the actual " missing money " didn't exist.

[richbaggie]

It's a topic pretty close to my heart and the programme has saddened me greatly.

I joined POL in 1987 (started at the Crown Office on the High Street in West Brom) and spent 20 very happy years working for the organisation until I took redundancy in 2007) I had a pretty decent career working my way up from the counter, the majority of the last 15 years working with subpostmasters, firstly training them and then the last 8 managing them in various areas around Midlands and Wales.

My own memories of the company and senior management were always positive. I always felt supported and looked after well. I can be a prickly character if I feel mistreated but I only ever had one occasion in 20 years to feel that way. Interestingly, it was following an interview by the Investigation Branch following a loss in my till when I was a trainee. The IB were bullies, very much feared. I can certainly relate to what we saw in the programme to my own experience. 19 year old (and importantly innocent me) gave as good as I got during the interview but I can remember it being a torrid hour or so being accused of theft by a good cop bad cop double act)

I was an area manager covering Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and South Wales when Horizon was introduced. It was part of my role to support the training following installations. I recall the system being really clunky( a word used in the programme) and it felt cheap. Nobody liked it from memory. However, I don't recall any major losses in my branches, certainly none like you see in the programme. Losses were common place before computerisation. Weekly balancing was always a stressy chore for subbies. I wasn't aware of any of these huge losses outside of my area either, certainly non in the regional team I was part of. The point being, up to when I left in 2007, there wasn't a whiff of scandal that I recall, that's how well it was covered up.

Seeing now, how much it was covered up by the board at the highest level, has really tainted my memories. I loved my time with POL. I worked with so many good people including senior managers.(I was Bobby Hope's area manager for a while when he had Boldmere Post Office, what a diamond he was) I am still good friends with so many people 17 years later. I hope those that lied are finally brought to account for their actions and those subpostmasters affected get proper justice and compensation.

[NewWanker]

Sounds like a system designed by financial experts who knew feck all about computer systems. Bet nobody checked their qualifications!

[Tom Joad]

It's a topic pretty close to my heart and the programme has saddened me greatly.

I joined POL in 1987 (started at the Crown Office on the High Street in West Brom) and spent 20 very happy years working for the organisation until I took redundancy in 2007) I had a pretty decent career working my way up from the counter, the majority of the last 15 years working with subpostmasters, firstly training them and then the last 8 managing them in various areas around Midlands and Wales.

My own memories of the company and senior management were always positive. I always felt supported and looked after well. I can be a prickly character if I feel mistreated but I only ever had one occasion in 20 years to feel that way. Interestingly, it was following an interview by the Investigation Branch following a loss in my till when I was a trainee. The IB were bullies, very much feared. I can certainly relate to what we saw in the programme to my own experience. 19 year old (and importantly innocent me) gave as good as I got during the interview but I can remember it being a torrid hour or so being accused of theft by a good cop bad cop double act)

I was an area manager covering Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and South Wales when Horizon was introduced. It was part of my role to support the training following installations. I recall the system being really clunky( a word used in the programme) and it felt cheap. Nobody liked it from memory.  However, I don't recall any major losses in my branches, certainly none like you see in the programme. Losses were common place before computerisation. Weekly balancing was always a stressy chore for subbies. I wasn't aware of any of these huge losses outside of my area either, certainly non in the regional team I was part of. The point being, up to when I left in 2007, there wasn't a whiff of scandal that I recall, that's how well it was covered up.

Seeing now, how much it was covered up by the board at the highest level, has really tainted my memories. I loved my time with POL. I worked with so many good people including senior managers.(I was Bobby Hope's area manager for a while when he had Boldmere Post Office, what a diamond he was) I am still good friends with so many people 17 years later. I hope those that lied are finally brought to account for their actions and those subpostmasters affected get proper justice and compensation.

Thanks for sharing that. I also knew a good few sub Postmasters (also including Bobby Hope from way back at Handsworth Wood- before he went to Boldmere). They all did decent jobs in a difficult environment, never mind the constant threat of violent robbery. I know one lady that had more than one of those.  I really feel for those implicated in this scandal.