Alan Bates vs The Post Office

[richbaggie]

It's a topic pretty close to my heart and the programme has saddened me greatly.

I joined POL in 1987 (started at the Crown Office on the High Street in West Brom) and spent 20 very happy years working for the organisation until I took redundancy in 2007) I had a pretty decent career working my way up from the counter, the majority of the last 15 years working with subpostmasters, firstly training them and then the last 8 managing them in various areas around Midlands and Wales.

My own memories of the company and senior management were always positive. I always felt supported and looked after well. I can be a prickly character if I feel mistreated but I only ever had one occasion in 20 years to feel that way. Interestingly, it was following an interview by the Investigation Branch following a loss in my till when I was a trainee. The IB were bullies, very much feared. I can certainly relate to what we saw in the programme to my own experience. 19 year old (and importantly innocent me) gave as good as I got during the interview but I can remember it being a torrid hour or so being accused of theft by a good cop bad cop double act)

I was an area manager covering Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and South Wales when Horizon was introduced. It was part of my role to support the training following installations. I recall the system being really clunky( a word used in the programme) and it felt cheap. Nobody liked it from memory.  However, I don't recall any major losses in my branches, certainly none like you see in the programme. Losses were common place before computerisation. Weekly balancing was always a stressy chore for subbies. I wasn't aware of any of these huge losses outside of my area either, certainly non in the regional team I was part of. The point being, up to when I left in 2007, there wasn't a whiff of scandal that I recall, that's how well it was covered up.

Seeing now, how much it was covered up by the board at the highest level, has really tainted my memories. I loved my time with POL. I worked with so many good people including senior managers.(I was Bobby Hope's area manager for a while when he had Boldmere Post Office, what a diamond he was) I am still good friends with so many people 17 years later. I hope those that lied are finally brought to account for their actions and those subpostmasters affected get proper justice and compensation.

Thanks for sharing that. I also knew a good few sub Postmasters (also including Bobby Hope from way back at Handsworth Wood- before he went to Boldmere). They all did decent jobs in a difficult environment, never mind the constant threat of violent robbery. I know one lady that had more than one of those.  I really feel for those implicated in this scandal.

Did she have the other Boldmere office perchance?

They did, and still do, a difficult job whilst having their income consistently eroded by government decisions.

[Tom Joad]

It's a topic pretty close to my heart and the programme has saddened me greatly.

I joined POL in 1987 (started at the Crown Office on the High Street in West Brom) and spent 20 very happy years working for the organisation until I took redundancy in 2007) I had a pretty decent career working my way up from the counter, the majority of the last 15 years working with subpostmasters, firstly training them and then the last 8 managing them in various areas around Midlands and Wales.

My own memories of the company and senior management were always positive. I always felt supported and looked after well. I can be a prickly character if I feel mistreated but I only ever had one occasion in 20 years to feel that way. Interestingly, it was following an interview by the Investigation Branch following a loss in my till when I was a trainee. The IB were bullies, very much feared. I can certainly relate to what we saw in the programme to my own experience. 19 year old (and importantly innocent me) gave as good as I got during the interview but I can remember it being a torrid hour or so being accused of theft by a good cop bad cop double act)

I was an area manager covering Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and South Wales when Horizon was introduced. It was part of my role to support the training following installations. I recall the system being really clunky( a word used in the programme) and it felt cheap. Nobody liked it from memory.  However, I don't recall any major losses in my branches, certainly none like you see in the programme. Losses were common place before computerisation. Weekly balancing was always a stressy chore for subbies. I wasn't aware of any of these huge losses outside of my area either, certainly non in the regional team I was part of. The point being, up to when I left in 2007, there wasn't a whiff of scandal that I recall, that's how well it was covered up.

Seeing now, how much it was covered up by the board at the highest level, has really tainted my memories. I loved my time with POL. I worked with so many good people including senior managers.(I was Bobby Hope's area manager for a while when he had Boldmere Post Office, what a diamond he was) I am still good friends with so many people 17 years later. I hope those that lied are finally brought to account for their actions and those subpostmasters affected get proper justice and compensation.

Thanks for sharing that. I also knew a good few sub Postmasters (also including Bobby Hope from way back at Handsworth Wood- before he went to Boldmere). They all did decent jobs in a difficult environment, never mind the constant threat of violent robbery. I know one lady that had more than one of those.  I really feel for those implicated in this scandal.

Did she have the other Boldmere office perchance?

They did, and still do, a difficult job whilst having their income consistently eroded by government decisions.

No, Slade Rd. B23. Back about 25 years, maybe more.

[Pipkins]

Its been a brilliant drama played by some fine actors

That said its another shit fest from the powers that be & corruption

Mr Davey was minister in charge & refused to meet Alan Bates about what was happening

Crozier has had or still has his hands in the premier league itv & others

As for that women getting her medal taken away it never happened to Phil Green over the BHS scandal so no chance will happen to her

The UK is fucked no thanks to corrupt politicians & others with power & responsibility

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

Its been a brilliant drama played by some fine actors

That said its another shit fest from the powers that be & corruption

Mr Davey was minister in charge & refused to meet Alan Bates about what was happening

Crozier has had or still has his hands in the premier league itv & others

As for that women getting her medal taken away it never happened to Phil Green over the BHS scandal so no chance will happen to her

The UK is fucked no thanks to corrupt politicians & others with power & responsibility

Quite. A relative of my Sister - In - Law is a male nurse, who, several years ago was doing a night shift in a busy A & E ward at a large hospital. 
He saw a very confused, elderly man being verbally abused and shouted at by a doctor. Disgusted, he told the senior sister on duty what had gone on. The advice was to make a complaint in writing, and he did so A few days later, he was told to go and see the main administrator regarding his letter. Expecting to be asked for more details etc, he was instead confronted by a group of senior managers / HR men, and given a right going over, which ended with him being told that they would accept his resignation with immediate effect, with the threat that he would never work in the N.H.S again if he didn`t agree.
Just as a coincidence, one of the senior managers involved, is the daughter of a high profile former cabinet minister.

[Ossian]

It's worth a bit of anybody's time going onto Youtube and just entering 'Darren Jones, Select Committees' and watching some of the clips covering Royal Mail. 

Darren Jones is MP for one of the Bristol constituencies and recently promoted to the opposition front bench. He does struggle to disguise his contempt at times, although I don't see that as a bad thing.

[ColliersWoodBaggie]

Its been a brilliant drama played by some fine actors

That said its another shit fest from the powers that be & corruption

Mr Davey was minister in charge & refused to meet Alan Bates about what was happening

Crozier has had or still has his hands in the premier league itv & others

As for that women getting her medal taken away it never happened to Phil Green over the BHS scandal so no chance will happen to her

The UK is fucked no thanks to corrupt politicians & others with power & responsibility

Quite. A relative of my Sister - In - Law is a male nurse, who, several years ago was doing a night shift in a busy A & E ward at a large hospital. 
He saw a very confused, elderly man being verbally abused and shouted at by a doctor. Disgusted, he told the senior sister on duty what had gone on. The advice was to make a complaint in writing, and he did so A few days later, he was told to go and see the main administrator regarding his letter. Expecting to be asked for more details etc, he was instead confronted by a group of senior managers / HR men, and given a right going over, which ended with him being told that they would accept his resignation with immediate effect, with the threat that he would never work in the N.H.S again if he didn`t agree.
Just as a coincidence, one of the senior managers involved, is the daughter of a high profile former cabinet minister.

And the bastards claim we live in democratic meritocracy.

---

I have followed this story for years (I looked into buying a sub Post Office when just starting out in self employment but luckily (!) could not afford it at the time). What has never been explained in the many R4 features, is where exactly did the money go? And if it did not go anywhere, how were charges ever made? The whole story is a shocking tale of incompetence and corruption. Prison has to be a consequence.

Apparently it went into a (or several) suspense account(s) and ended up as PO profits. 
But that is difficult to prove without access to the said accounts

I wonder how many young mistresses or wives ended up dripping in Gucchi and how many yachts or how many properties were bought on the back of this scandal.

[richbaggie]

Losses made good in subpostmasters accounts went into a national suspense account for 2 years. Sometimes, reasons for the losses would be identified and money would be returned to the subbie (this was common). If nothing came to light after 2 years, it would just be absorbed into profit.

That was a fair old chunk of money given some of the Horizon based losses were 10s of thousands.

[Hughie Reed 31]

It's worth a bit of anybody's time going onto Youtube and just entering 'Darren Jones, Select Committees' and watching some of the clips covering Royal Mail. 

Darren Jones is MP for one of the Bristol constituencies and recently promoted to the opposition front bench. He does struggle to disguise his contempt at times, although I don't see that as a bad thing.

Darren Jones ripped Thompson (CEO) & Williams (Chairman) to pieces in fact they were sent away and asked to return with some proper answers as both seemingly did not understand the question’s asked of them and the fact they were under oath which really means fuck all as no action was taken against them.

Thompson left Royal Mail in September with a £700,000 pay off Williams is still there and just hired another chump to do his dirty work.

[Albionmad]

The petition to strip Paula Vennels of her CBE has reached 200,000

https://home.38degrees.org.uk/?s=Paula+vennels+

You need to click on the green box to see the current figure.

[Birdman1811]

Horizon was discussed, at length when I was at Uni about how an IT project should not be managed, the whole process from start to finish was truly diabolical. The system was so badly built and designed it would have looked and acted dated in the 80's, yet it cost a ridiculous sum of money. Our lecturer said he has had 2nd Year Comp Sci students hand in better software for marking than Horizon was as a built, installed and used system for ridiculous sums of money.